Look at the Working Man's stage race.
But then if you get past the title it shouldn't suprise you that the first placed woman doesn't even get her start money back... but in the Cat 4 guys even the 3 place dude gets start money +$10 back... Sure add the QOM and there's some cash but damn the cat 4 men clean up comparatively... now sure... if ya have a smaller field then ya can't pay out as much...
BUT if ya don't pay out enough... your field will be smaller...
its BOB's race so they can do what they want...
but after the comments about the bitching shitty payout for the woman in the Cox crit... its all on the promoters... if ya want bigger women fields and more woman racers - start offering bigger purses...
sure maybe there aren't quite enough women around... but then like the Pro/1/2 races - put in $15,000 of prises and suddenly guys from outa town are showing up...
too bad we can't go euro and pay people to race... that's be fucking sweet...
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Geoff, I understand what you're saying but from the BOB perspective the race in itself is already in jeapordy thanks to all the different costs arrising which I'm sure you're fully aware of, then you have a field of only a women showing up and there goes anything you had left over at all.
Call me stupid but is there actually a rule saying that women can't race in men fields? At least in the training races I've done such as Wells and such the women are more than capable enough to do just as well if not better than most of the men. If they want the big bucks perhaps they should start racing with the men if the rules allow it. Then again I'm just a stupid newbie.
P.S. I meant "a few women showing up"
From what little i know about woman who compete (okay so i've know many female athletes)... and well was around that whole title nine crap in a couple places...
ask the woman: do you wanna race with the men? Then ask them: do you think you can beat the whole field?
if you discount the winner at Cox the woman's field was significantly slower over only 23 miles... but then... maybe they could have all finished in the main pack with the guys... but coming down to a sprint, there are plenty of fast woman, but more often than not they need more luck than legs or brains to beat a strong Cat 4 or esp this Master's field...
I know the costs are huge to promote a race... and that maybe history is a good indicator of future performance (registration)...
Here's the problem... At least make the 1st place finisher get the $ back... $10... that's all it is... or make it $30 if ya need to bump the rest of the places up...
That $10 might mean an extra two or three woman and right there (assuming reg fees are part of what pays prize list) ya made money back...
but don't listen to me- i'm up in this stupid ivory tower...
On the surface, $100 may look bad, and we could probably do better, but here are some facts:
Notice the Cat 5 men's race gets $0 prizes, per USCF rules. As there is no Cat 5 for women, Cat 4 women are essentially the equivalent. So if the women's race was Cat 4 only, then we would be giving them MORE, not LESS than the men. However, the women's field is generally the lowest number of entrants of those we offer. We opened it up to 3/4 in order to give an opportunity to more women to enter. We do not open it up to Cat 1/2 women, because the "Workingman's" concept has stood for the "hobbyist" racer for 20 years.
The men's cat 4 field gets $250, but the field will be full, and also we have a number of Cat 4 members. And again, Cat 4 men are essentially the equivalent of Cat 3 women (one cat up from beginner).
Our race does not have a commercial sponsor, so entry fees are its primary source of revenue. Each year we face the difficult decision of deciding which categories to include, and how much the entry and payouts should be. The club stalwarts who have been devoting their time to running this race for 20 years ultimately make the decisions based on a number of factors, including turnout, and what we might do at our other race, the Haverhill Crit. Sadly, we may cancel the women's race completely this year, because road use issues with our host towns may force us to shorten the circuit race course. Due to this being an evening race, we must run all fields concurrently, and on a 6 mile lap we may have to sacrifice a field. As the woman are the smallest...
Does this make it right? No, not really, but I think it is understandable. As races are promoted by clubs, ultimately it is up to the clubs with a large membership of woman riders to promote the interests of woman's cycling.
The Cox group (pun intended) can do what they please too, but of course I think we all have a right to skip their event and criticize it too, just as they may ours. I see their situation as a bit different. Until last year, the race was co-promoted by an exclusively women's club (Dansko) and the race got many volunteers from them. The largest issue though, is at $15000 prize money, clearly this race had outside sponsorship money, and was not solely dependent on entry fees to make ends meet. Maybe the sponsor wanted all their money spent on the Pro men's field; I don't know. But even at BOB, our highest purse is 5.75 times the women's prize list, not 15 times, and we are not comparing "equal" categories (pro vs pro).
So is BOB leading the way? Probably not, but I think the Cox group has pretty much set the standard for disrespecting women's racing.
Why exactly do we set the standard for disrespecting Women's racing?
Again, as noted above 15 times the purse for the top group. Parity is rare (only Altoona that I know of), but I am not aware of any similar race with greater payout bias.
Nice comments SB... no disagreement... and then yeah the Cat 5 guys get medals and the cat 4 woman could potentially get cash. So that's a valid exercise and rational. Certianly one that can't be faulted.
On the otherside, building the sport in terms of building the sport is a good endeavor. Boosting prize by $10 (to cover race fees) doesn't seem too terribly disrespectful to the cat 3/4 woman or the cat 5 guys. Guys don't give a crap... and since there are more of us we need better selection for jumping from 5-4 (look at me ;) for example)...
If there is a rumbling crisis in woman's racing its on the shoulders of all the clubs in New England to pull their weight. IMHO, although, i don't think we've got many in the way of woman in the Pvelo club so... look who's talking.
now onto those Cox promoters... and Il Brucie's protest.
I'll tell ya what's wrong. But SB beat me to it.
The woman have been grumbling mightily about the diparity. How can you have a Woman's race (Pro 1/2/3/4) and only pay out they way they did?
It was/is a joke and a total curb job to all of woman's racing. You have a 'Pro race' no cat 5 men, yet you can't make the Woman's race pay out?
Open it up to cat 5 men, let their entry fees pay for the woman's purse. Split the races Womans Pro1/2 and 3/4, give em a small gap and a neutralized 1st lap... like they should have done with the 35+ and 45+ race... that was a total cluster fuck too. Two separate prize lists, but one race... they didn't even bother to stage the groups separately...
Simple small things that would all be within the scope of the directorship of the race with little to no expenditure (okay increasing the purse, but hell Get the COx cable suckers to pull add money from one of the numerous woman's channels)...
Somewhat no brainer if ya ask me...
Well, I can understand their problems too. There are difficult choices to make in all cases.
I can also understand how someone who busted their asses and put on a women's race with a $1000 purse (still one of the larger purses for a one day race) in the pouring rain would think being called "disrespectful" was a little harsh. Promoters take the risks and do the work, so they should get to make the choices.
At BOB, things are done by committee, and your "voice" is really heard to the extent that you are willing and able to put your money or your effort where your mouth is.
FWIW, at the women's summit meeting, prizes were not a big issue. The consensus was making races pre-reg only, with lower entry fees would be the way to go. At the WMSR, we kept it to $60 for 3 days racing, which is a tad below the going rate. Perhaps we could have priced the women's entry lower, as the loss in revenue would be insignificant. Again though, it seems that people with $900 wheels don't really care about the money that much. The Pro/elite though, they don't pay for the stuff, and some of them do need to race for the money, regardless of gender. Certainly it is harder to make it as a woman.
The Pro men are the show. It is what the sponsors are willing to pay for.
Open Women had 28 starters and 15 finishers. $1000.00 for the top 10 places.
We had 312 starters x-duplicates. Women were 9% of them or 24% as large as the Pro/1/2 field.
28% of the 3/4 field. 51% of the 35= field. 70% of the 45+ field. All of which had half the prize list as the women. If more women came out to race maybe the money would be better.
As a workingman racer is it about the prize list? If to the women are doing OK. Over 1/3 of the starters were going to get paid. The Pro/1/2 would have to go 40 deep to match that.
I have no doubt that the promoter could have done better but setting the standard for disrespect may be a bit of hyperbole.
yes - well good point there brucie...
and pay out for a small field is definately a good thing...
the feeling and the grumbling i've heard is mostly from Prize list...
and yeah there were a few more spectators there for the Pro race... afew...
with the weather it's expected i guess...
why not showcase the woman as well? Or at least give them somewhat of a more solid footing to be judged against.
It is their race. They have to make the call. And ultimately in a comprimise situation someone gets the short stick... but this was like a game of pick up ball, picking teams and one team gets Shaq and the other team is given Mini-me...
a noticable disparity... but then i didn't race, i don't have their equipment and can't really understand how they feel and maybe they are all okay with it.
The cox folks could easily poll the small field and ask how to improve it for next year.
That or they could poll all the riders to ask what specifically they would like changed for next year to make the race even better.
The staging area and the call up by Pre-reg #s were things i heard from more than a few people based on where i was marshalling the course.
And how about the agressive pulling of riders in the master's race? JoeB was caught in the second break that go pulled, with not a terribly huge gap... i dunno, pulling is a tough call in a crit but it seemed rather agressive in the master's race...
if ya gonna be agressive there why not pull that UVM dude who was riding with one arm for the last 4-5 laps???
He's right there at the bottom. Gave him the same time... but he was far enough behind that they started staging the Pro race before he got there. WTF?
Feel sorry for him cause he prolly crashed and busted something but finished? And ya pull other riders who weren't in any danger of getting lapped?
Clusterfuck is an understatement.
Sure it could have gone more smoothly, and there are always bound to be goof ups.... but that was stupid...
he had to beg borrow weasle to get through the pack of jittery juniors amped to the max on caffine (based on the twitching those guys HAD to have been way over the WADA limit)
Saturday night at the Rochester NRC crit, they got 40 women, including all the pro women's teams that were not at Providence. The crowd and sponsors loved it. At 'cross Nat's, the crowd went nuts at the elite Women's race too. Was the crowd at the men's race bigger? Yeah maybe, but not 15x. I don't think comparing Pro/Elite women with Master 45+ racers (many of whom are Cat 4) is justifiable. The Pro men are not "the show" to the general public. Look at the marathon, tennis, etc.
Again, the sponsor, and especially the promoter, have every right to do things as they see fit. Everyone who has ever promoted a race knows you need thick skin!
Chalk and cheese. The Cox crit is not a NRC of National calibre race. The level of riders wasn't that high Sunday. It's a smallish race that definately suffered from the weather.
Male bike racers aren't shy about complaining about prize lists. Speak up. Teh women can let Gary know they think the prizes were thin.
If a woman is going to cherry pick races for payouts a low paying race shouldn't even be on their radar. Rather than gripe go race elsewhere.
What bugs me more is "Open" womens' races. It seems like thowing the beginners to the wolves.
Two years ago my wife decided to do her first bike race (Jamestown)and their W Cat. IV field was started with the Jr. Men! They were told to "ride seperate races" but of course the top 3 women all jumped with the boys while the others looked at each other. This is the stuff that would irk me. Not crappy prize lists.
I have my own issues with the way things are done and some of the spending involved.
$15,000 is certainly an NRC caliber prize list.
As for separating out the Cat 4 women, no argument there. This was the primary focus of the women's summit. Oddly enough, it was not the Cat 4's who were complaining, it was the Cat 1-2 women, because at Jiminy peak there were 90 riders, and the Cat 1 women were racing in the largest field of the year along with first time racers. Nobody would ever put cat 5 men in with the pros, but cat 4 women can be first timers.
The problem is that when promoters break it out to 1-3 and 3/4, most of the cat 3 women choose the latter. However, it seems hard to get promoters to have a separate cat 4 women's race. There is an inititave underway to encourage it. When Gerri M. started the cat 4 women's series years ago, the idea was not popular, but it worked, and the numbers for women, though still low compared to men, are WAY higher as a result.
So yeah, that is the way to go. And everyone, women included, must understand that not every promoter can offer a race for every category.
Fitchburg went to a 1/2 and a 3/4 women's race this year. They are one of the few races big enough to break out the 1/2. The 3/4 is probably a mistake (they used to get excellent fields with a 1/2, a 3, and a 4), but they did it so they could squeeze in a Cat 2 men's race (an idea that I support, but perhaps they should have dropped the cat 4 women entirely and given the 3's their own race). Again, their race, their choice.
Sorry I struck a nerve with the "setting the standard" comment. Earlier in the year, Pave had no women at Stonington, and then the 15x issue... I am sure some women stayed away in protest, both of the disparity, and because they were getting thrown in with the 4's on a tight course. Yes, sometimes the promoter just can't win. Gewilli, look what you started here!
You have Issues BRUCE?
at least its only testosterone blithering aound talking in here...
i'm sure the woman are having a laugh - assuming there is a woman brave enough to make it through this stuff
holy scrolling hell batman -
SB got his post in just before me...
and damn this is a LOOOOONG thread... and yeah i knew i was stirring the shit but I didn't know it would turn into a freaking boil-over....
bottom line is what can *WE* do to make it better? Maybe we'd better let the woman do the answering of that question, assuming a woman (like i said before) makes it this far...
Yes I have ISSUES!
The event "staff" is usually put up in the Westin. There was the do at Napa Valley Grill for select volunteers(Primarily Cox employees) that Liz & I crashed. Hey. I'm only a club volunteer.
As far as women brave enough to comment... I'm sure the women are brave enough, just not dumb enough. My wife works too hard, unlike me, to spend time at work grousing over silly things like bike racing.
(my verification word is pnuny!)
hell i dunno about commenting - i'd be suprised if they read this far!!!
and i wish i hadn't heard about all that pork barrel crap...
Children's Charities? HORSESHIT... sounds like the children benefiting the most are those of the folks put up in the Westin and taken care of at the Napa Valley thing.
Not to mention, there was nearly a pallet of Naraganset beer... that someone said was for the volunteers... yet... funny enough, it was never mentioned anywhere to the volunteers... at least not that i heard and i was there for a damn freaking hellofalongtime volunteering...
for what reason? I dunno... i dunno... call me stupid, but i had fun.
Maybe Gannset should be sought after for a title sponsorship for the BOB races! Eh?
The 'gansett made it to NVG. I drank three.
There was little or no chance it all got consumed. It's prolly still at NVG.
I GOT ISSUES!
Years ago me and the Cronoman rode for Michelob Dry.
I will be glad to buy you that 'gansett you missed out on. We had it at the Rox game and it wasn't bad. I probably owe Bruce one too.
The 'gansett made it to NVG. I drank three.
There was little or no chance it all got consumed. It's prolly still at NVG.
That is a total major pile of horse poop...
Woulda been sweet to have em hand me a six of tall boys as a thank you... at $4 retail here in Rhode Island that's not a big gift for the volunteers...
maybe i shoulda let a few of the fat wandering sacks of WWE RAW blubber fans out infront of the mustang pace car... (i'm just kidding - i couldn't justify putting the riders in harms way... they were some seriously large blubber bags walking around)
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