moments...
harassing CTodd in the comment section over there i remembered a thought or two i had.
now i know it has been hashed out pretty extensively but it bore out thinking a bit.
Standing climbing vs Seated climbing. Solo had some commentary jazz about it a while back.
Pros in the long grand tour climbs more often are climbing out of the saddle, so why not undergear and just spin up?
Well remember that water bottle thing that Anquetil or who ever did? They'd put their Bidon in the jersey pocket everytime the hill went up? Myth or not, effective or not i got wondering... (on the bike riding, i don't listen to a death pod on the bike so i think... you deathpod riders can go on not thinking and listening to music till ya get nailed by a car you can't hear)
Seated a large % of your body mass is planted in the saddle. it is a stabilizing force allowing the rider to spin faster an all that... the slower the cadence the more unsupported time your ass is planted in saddle, no? Yes seated your hands don't have a huge amount of weight being supported. But then i thinking again...
When you are standing the energy you are expending to suspend your fat (or skinny ass) off the saddle is typically more active and more helpful in going up hill at lower cadences... Yes your muscles have to work a bit more, but if you have the training and power ceiling it should be more efficient than generating the same forces from the seated position and so rocking the bike back and forth alternating which hand the weight is on and using a bit of upper body to counter the weighted leg... more of your mass is being used.
But yes, studies (iirc) show that ones efficiency (power/speed/whatever metric) is not so different in the standing and seated positions. So why do the "climbers" climb standing? For one most of the climbers are tiny little folk like Kerry. And they don't have much mass and so suspending the mass climbing in a standing position isn't much different than seated, and so balancing fatigue/efficiency is less of an issue relative to a 90kg fat ass like me. Maybe?
If ya look at the force and power numbers. Standing your cadence is almost always lower for a given watt output (think constant speed) than seated. That's the force. No? Yeah. More force. Where does that force come from? Body mass. Downside force hurts. And, little folks need to make less force because of the power to weight advantage, forget the power to weight advantage and just look at the weight issue. Force required to turn the pedals is really a factor of weight. Me with trailer loaded takes WAY more force to go up a 10% grade than me w/o trailer. LOTS more force. Like 20 or more N*m. or roughly 1 extra newton meter per extra kilogram i'm draggin. The weight, dragged or carried is still weight that is working against. On your back, in a trailer. Still a mass that you need to add the energy into lifting it. Now on a bike. Out of the saddle you can use that mass in your fat ass as an asset if your legs are strong enough. Again, this favors the tiny who's asses are small, less strength required to dance out of the pedals for a long time. I think i'm beginning to chase my own tail here in this one sided argument.
It would be curious, those who have power meters and what nots, can ya watch/record the force numbers seated vs standing for a given power output?
I hate to "ask" anyone who happens to read this for feedback in debunking one of my cockamamie ideas, and yes, analytical cycling probably can do it, but real world numbers work better than simulators with too few variables or too many variable with WAGs as entries.
Hmmm, heck it really is a simple equation tho. Power more or less equals pedal force and cadence (speed). So. some easy linear relationship should be possible to figure out easy enough even with Analytical cycling... hmmm i think i'm more apt to run my mouth than run a spreadsheet with the numbers... that and i'd wager the link is physiologically different from individual to individual... which is what makes it different.
Do climbers have a distinct force/power when standing advantage over seated climbing? Is there a body mass or power to weight ratio that can be used as a benchmark for a rider to determine if they climb standing or seated?
I wonder if the power groups have had a discussion like this... (like linked over at Kettle Rechts
Shit Fire Alarm...
must exit building and leave it as it is...
stupid modern systems. Fahking sprinkler code tripped but sprinkler wasn't shooting water... "water pressure drop or something strange"
at least we weren't standing outside for too long. Felt fahkin cold tho... 57 °F supposedly... great...
Anyway, the train was sufficiently derailed. I ain't gonna work on cleaning up the mess in my mind that this major interruption caused. (minor interuptions like phone calls and "why can't i see my sample, can you help" questions are not nearly as disruptive as wondering if i'm gonna be able to get back in to change and get my stuff... fire alarm)...
Ride smart, ride fast and never stop thinking (unless you are racing, then stop thinking and start riding faster)...
respect,
G
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14 comments:
Still there?
Whenever we have a fire alarm at Deathnic we get the hazmat team and decontamination suits.
I met a fellow last night that was one of the guys that put us back together after our explosion a few years ago. He reports that we were a disaster waiting to happen, and still are.
added small comment and yeah...
fire alarm here and i'd wager the firemen are wicked hoping it was just a false alarm...
Hey - if anyone wants to lend me a powertap with a 27-29 tooth campy cog int eh back I'll be your guniea pig for the Mt Wash race...
Brucie, Brockton Rox tomorrow night, but of course Gewilli can't make it...
He's too busy overthinking...
You can't live by sitting alone, right? You have to get up and stretch the legs sometime. Ever try to do it on the flats? You have to use a bigger gear, right? So on the climbs, it's a good time to do it.
The efficiency thing is more complicated. Every cycling book makes a huge deal out of finding the proper seat height, but when you stand up, you can use whatever posture you feel like. What does that mean? I don't really know. Do you bend your knee more, less, or the same when standing? Ditto for the hips.
Whether or not a "pure climber" chooses to stand or sit at crunch time depends on a lot of things. Testing "efficiency" in the lab is not the same thing as doing a 6 hour stage with four alpine passes. Fatigue (whatever that is) makes you do whatever works.
What about sprinting? It's easier to test right (takes less time anyway). Should you stand to jump, then sit, or stand all the way to the line?
CTodd has me thinking about Mt W. $300 is a total crock, but it is something I think you have to do once. I did Ascutney and it sucked. Maybe if CTodd offers to share his posh Intervale condo and ride down the mountain, I could be talked into this. Ge should stop crying poor mouth too. I'm sure he has a spare $300 lying around somewhere.
me overthinking... yeah... that's me...
*shrug*
oh and i'll pony up the cash in a few years (maybe) it is one of those "gotta do it once" things...
might as well do it after i've been on the bike a solid 3-4 years tho
Solo -
Elle will be my ride down. I've got a Thule rack which will fit on the back of her car. We're staying at the posh Swiss Chalet for a whopping $104/night. (the rates go up in July as it was only $85/night for the practice ride)
And if I didn't get to do it twice - I'm not sure I'd have paid the $300. Cuz that's a lotta ca$h, I agree. Something I had to do. Because well - I like climbing. Not all that great at it, but I like it.
I'm thinking of getting a 29 cog for the race.
gee - no pt here (sadly)
however 2 things:
1. on a computrainer or similar, when you hit a hill, standing up, it is really hard to maintaing the same cadence/speed. granted this is not real world. you end up shifting up 1-2 gears, like you would in real life. at this point, your watts are usually close, one way or the other, to the original number (assuming same grade, and trying to keep it at the same speed). I can do a more detailed test if you want, let me know.
2. ive always felt like seated climbing is how you help build strength/power. my coach has had me do a mix of high cadence spins, lower cadence grinds, (both seated) , and standing climbing intervals. i guess its due to higher torque (maybe, im not as technical as you) when seated, pushing a harder gear, but i feel that builds power? so maybe that is pushing more watts? i dont know how it compares to standing at the same speed tho
im not sure any of this helps you, in fact you may have known it all already, but maybe it helped?
No Rox sadly. Tonight is the gumby pizza ride. Gotta go get dropped by type A soccer moms.
i did a very brief unscientific "test" this morning...
standing climb up Lloyd. Pretty steady grade. 350 watts standing, sat down and couldn't hold the cadence/power in the same gear, it *felt* way harder making that much wattage from a seated position. Stood back up and was easily making 350 watts. I was in the 50x23 so i only had the 50x25 as a bail gear and if you want to plug numbers in somewhere i think i was doing about 11-12 mph at the 350 watts (gives you an idea of cadence and the amount of extra work the trailer- it was empty except for my bag and lunch)...
Standing employs more muscle groups, so you can make more power, but also use more oxygen. So if you have good lungs, and train all those muscles to endure, you can do longer climbs standing and go faster. However, I don't think anybody trains standing anywhere near the amount of time they do sitting, so naturally for longer efforts we're better equipped to sit.
So next, try it at 90 rpm sitting at speed x. Then 60 rpm standing at the same speed (different gear). Power should be exactly the same (if speed is identical). So which is easier? I'll bet standing for less than a few minutes if it's a big effort. For more than 2 minutes, or at lower outputs, sitting will probably feel more economical.
and that brings us to Big Blue and some yahoo who things 5 minutes standing is easier than sitting...
And wait? $300 for the entry fee? Then, $104 for the race night, $84 for the practice night...
you could have skipped all that shit and just bought a power tap...
I stand up and sit down several times on a Big Blue run. It's over 400 watts average (based on my weight, speed, and grade, confirmed by Marro's PT measurements, as we weigh the same and go the same speed). The peaks on the steep parts must be way higher. Trying to sit the whole way just means you bog down and go slower.
Sitting more IS faster, but it just depends on how fit you are. On my very best runs I think I'm just able to keep the speed up, and thus it's easier to stay in a rhythm and sit on all but the very steepest parts.
For whatever reason though, my best times are still under 70 rpm average. I've tried going fast with an easier gear and higher cadence, but have never been able to match the times I get when using a bigger gear. As noted previously, I think this has something to do with it being a relatively short effort and because the grade varies so much.
Let the record show that the only time I rode up Big Blue with Gewilli, he beat me to the top, even though he was riding a suspended MTB and I was on a hardtail. I think he did some standing though.
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