I've been known to hurl it around, but recent activities and passionate and compelling arguments have stirred the thought process around abit.
Made me think about it. And how wrong that stuff is. Sure. most of it is good natured heckling. And then. There is the other side of things.
The mandatory upgrade.
Riders who do earn the points but USAC has their head so focused on other sides of the sport not to pay attention that they don't enact the mandatory upgrade are truely sandbaggers.
So how do you define points and upgrades?
Let us go right to the source at USAC...
Cyclocross Upgrades
Guidelines and Notes by Category:
4-3: Need 20 points in any 12-month period; or experience in 25 qualifying races with a minimum of 10 top-ten finishes. 30 points in 12 months is an automatic upgrade.
3-2: Need 25 points in any 12-month period.40 points in 12 months is an automatic upgrade.
2-1: Need 25 points in any 12-month period. 40 points in 12 months is an automatic upgrade.
| Qualifying races for each category: | ||||
| Category | Class | Duration | Field | Points Awarded |
| 4-3 | Men Women Junior | 30 min 30 min 30 min | 20 10 10 | 10-7-5-4-3-2-1 7-5-3-2-1 7-5-3-2-1 |
| 3-2 | Men Women | 40 min 30 min | 30 20 | 10-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 10-7-5-4-3-2-1 |
| 2-1 | Men Women | 60 min 40 min | 30 20 | 10-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 10-7-5-4-3-2-1 |
So that's what they say.
Now, say you race an age category. How does that work? If you are like a C-Burke (just for example) and you are racing in the 45+ category as a 3 (heck i dunno if he is a 3 or a 2 for that matter). But that 45+ category is also run concurrently with the 35+. Say C-Burke scores a win as a 45+. Does that give him 10 upgrade points? or if that first place 45+ is only 5th place in the 35+ combined field, does that only give him 5 upgrade points?
Just curious. Now these fields are also 3-4 times bigger than the minimum. Shouldn't that play into it?
Heck if you wanted to upgrade only reg in races that meet the minimum. And that just ain't hap'nin around here. 90-120 rider fields? A 20th place should mean something, no? If there were only 20-30 riders in the field chances are the 20th place finisher in the 90-120 field will be somewhat closer to the leader than the dfl person in the race, no?
Just thoughts. Maybe the team at CrossResults.com can work on a "calculate/track my upgrade points"... it would certainly help identify the real sandbaggers and not just the working guys who manage to put it together for one race, or the Roadies who show up at a windy grass crit and kick the bike handling folk's asses...
I wonder if the CrossResults team will see this and consider it...
as always.... all comments are here by expressed by me... i think Jim said it best... glass houses, rocks, we through enough rocks living in a glass house maybe it will help move out of the neighborhood... or something, he wrote it a bit more clearly than I, or me or what ever the proper pronoun is for the ending of that sentence. (me no copy editor)
peace
g
23 comments:
okay -
i go over to poke around at crossresults.com and
well
whadda ya know...
sumbitches have "Upgrade" points already as a category...
maybe because i've yet to earn any, i haven't noticed it...
that or like minds are thinking alike
Hey G -- we actually already track that kind of thing at crossresults.com, you just probably never noticed because your race history doens't have any upgrade points in it :p. The problem is that no one really knows what the upgrade rules are when fields are combined. Like if I place 5th in a 3/4 race with 30 entrants (the minimum), but 20 cat 4s, is that really worth upgrade points? No one publishes racer categories so it's impossible to know how many cat 3's you're beating.
Same with a 1/2/3 or 2/3 race, although obviously Gloucester has at least 30 cat 2's in the 2/3 race.
Anyway on the subject of the two guys who ran away with it on Day 2, here's their race histories:
Conal Groom - Currently has 20 upgrade points, all from the past weekend
Cort Cramer - Currently has 29 upgrade points, had 15 before the weekend
Neither of them had the points to upgrade to Cat 3 before the weekend, now both of them do. If I saw them riding Cat 4 again, I'd call them sandbaggers, but not until then.
wow, i should type faster, then you can't steal my jokes.
Exactly the two people who were hearing the "sandbagger" hurled around publicly WHEN RACING...
i guess maybe i draw the distinction between chiding a friend on the side and publicly yelling at them...
I guess maybe a mixed category would go with the lowest point scoring system? no?
So if you score points in a 3/4 race they would be based on the Cat 4 system? If you score points in a 1,2,3 though... would it be scored based on the 1?
Confusing, eh?
I think USAC needs a FAQ with these kind of questions. No?
oh but, a win is a win and that's the same points no matter what category...
I think part of the CX categories getting sorted out will be establishing how mixed field upgrades work. I'd love to see it hammered out, but right now I don't think they could post a FAQ because no one knows.
Some more comments, apparently the guy who won both days is from Seattle, so who knows what his deal is -- maybe he is a super-sandbagger and I just don't have any data on him, or maybe he has a OBRA license so he can only race Cat 4 at USA Cycling events.
I note with some dismay that Cort is already registered for Cat 4's at Northamptom.
Hmmmm.
Also my stupid website keeps timing out crunching numbers. Dammit, I need a web host that's more than $10/month, I guess, or more efficient code....
First mistake, you think anybody at USAC gives a shit about what happens in the Cat 4 race? Did you pay your entry fee? Then get outta here!
Second, I've been told "automatic" just means they cannot turn you down; you still have to request it.
Third, I believe you need the minimum number of 3's in a race to use it for a 3 to 2 upgrade.
Colin, spent some downtime building a new rankings system that takes every rider in the field and their standing into account when judging the worth of a placing. That should give you guys something to bicker about for a few months...
Colin, spent some downtime building a new rankings system that takes every rider in the field and their standing into account when judging the worth of a placing. That should give you guys something to bicker about for a few months...
I already did that, to some degree. My server is already on the verge of catching fire, I can't really make it more complex.
Fair enough, Cort. The prereg-rush-thing is really a pain in the ass when you're on the edge of an upgrade, hopefully the organizers will give you your spot in the 2/3 race based on your registration time for 4's.
So much for 'everything's so much more mellow in 'cross compared to these roadie a-holes' theory, huh?
That's about the lamest thing i've ever heard. Guy rides his guts out and has to deal with some assholes calling him a sandbagger. Best part: he didn't even have enough upgrade points before the weekend started! Maybe some of these tools should train more and just STFU.
And what's with beating on Fries all the time? Did you two get into it at some point? Jeebus... you make it sound as if the guy's giving Stalin a run for his money.
Ok, rant over. I hate Ponies, btw.
Fries is fine if he thinks you a big enough fish.
If you are one of the littles he just looks right through you.
agree with JB. ride more....get better. give props to those who get the results.
Colin, I host ctodd.tv over at
http://www.1and1.com/?k_id=10180075
Its pretty cheap and you get a ton of space, traffic, etc. If you do want to switch use that link. I get referral points (which is like $0.25 or something, but hey I'll take it).
Now...
WTF is wrong with you people?! Stop worrying about what other people are doing and ride your bike. Did you all suddenly regress to high school??
If someone wins a race day in and day out and don't want to upgrade, they can definitely get heckled as they are inflating their ego, but I see very little sandbagging going on around here. Tim Johnson didn't ride the 4 race this weekend did he? Because THAT would be sandbagging.
Let me ask this: how long has this Cort guy been racing cross? Is he some road pro? No? Is it his first season racing CX? So friggin' what if he's won a few cat 4 races? good for him! He still needs to race and learn before upgrading. Unless this guy is a Cat 1 roadie with years of bike handling experience or an expert mountain biker I'd say let the guy race a bunch in the 4s (or Cs) until he's (or she - this isn't meant to be gender specific) comfortable with the whole process. Screw the bikereg.com factor - or the crossresults.com factor: Its not all about results.
I am willing to bet Solo's right on the money. USAC couldn't care less. They have larger issues to deal with than someone riding in a cat 4 race who "shouldn't" be there. And by "shouldn't" I mean a bunch of pansies whining because the were beaten.
Someone is faster than you? Aww. Boo f'n hoo.
HARDEN THE F**K UP!!
Step up your game and get faster or quit bitchin'.
I like ponies!
ctodd - the thing is, i need a host who will let me abuse the processor and database on their server, not just give me bandwidth and space. much harder to find for $10/month.
Step up your game and get faster or quit bitchin'.
Is anyone really bitching? Sounds like the consensus here is, don't f'in call people sandbaggers while they race unless you know their situation really well. And if you know them that well, you probably don't need to yell at them during a race to get your point across.
hello all you sandbagger wannabees :-)
Now I have to preface my comments by saing that I don't race 'cross (yet?) and I don't have a lot of experience in Road either (I'm a cat 3 woman). I will say, however, that I got all sorts of opinions when I was reaching that upgrade point partway through last season. Some people encouraged me to upgrade as soon as I had the minimum points, but *most* said to keep racing as a 4 and get more experience before upgrading. It was my first season, and I was by points able to upgrade by the end of May. However, I had only been in a handful of races, and I think it would probably not have been a good idea to upgrade then. As it was, I raced 3 more times in the 4s, helped out my teammates, and ended up with 2 more victories, and I'm sure people called me a sandbagger. However, now I feel good in 3s races, and I feel like i have enough experience I won't do lame and potentially unsafe newbie things in races. Now I suppose if I was decimating the field in the 4s in every race, that would have been another story, but alas that is not the case, all my victories were field sprint wins...
Cheers! At least this site has some lively discussion...
Hey guys, Just wanted to chime in. I left my wheels at gloucester (red Heliums with panaracer tires and shimano 9-sp cassete) if anyone knows of there whereabouts I would greatly appreciate some info. email me at: Heydenw (at) mail.amc.edu
As far as the sandbagging thing goes. If you win your race and it is not in the elites then there is a good chance you are sandbagging wether you know it or not. If you know it, shame on you. If you don't, good job.
thanks,
-Willem (NAV)
12PM and no new post? you're slacking :P
That it TOO FRIGGIN FUNNY!!!!!!
I like Ponies!
I'm feeling left out of the sand bagger conversation. Hell, I was third and fourth in the Cat 4 race, and Cort and Conal only get the "sand bagger" luv? Give it up a little bit.
Cat 4 is such an open category in terms of competencies. You have guys like me who are tri-geeks that do the occasional road race, but carry a ton of fitness into the cross season. Add in a not very technical course, and you have a hammerfest suited to the anaerobically inclined. I've done some 35+ 3/4 races this year as well and finished top 5. But again, is it sand-bagging to do a Cat 4 race? After all, that is my category.
The whole point of Cat 4 (or 5) racing is to gain the experience necessary to advance. Regardless of how far Cort or Conal were in front, people in the back were still getting that experience, and having a pretty good time.
And ponies are cool, as long as they don't sandbag
Ge', you must be feeling the love with all these comments.
My feeling is (having been a back row starter on sunday with a 40th finish) that upgrades come AFTER you rip the legs off a category. In road that is relatively straight forward, if you do it a few times you're probably going to do it lots, so move up.
However, in 'cross the course and conditions matter. If a dude wins some cat 4 races in dry, fast conditions is he really ready for a mucky, cold, technical course with the 2/3s. If I was that guy I'd want some experience in those conditions too.
Interestingly, I used crossresults sandbagging tool and made the contraints pretty strict and the only names that came up were Lyne, Trebon, Wicks, and some fucking fast masters (always in the A race).
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